(39)
moting the building of Churches and Chapels,
and to provide for the maintenance of Ministers
of Religion. I now move that the Church Exten-
sion Bill be read a second time."

Mr. Earp—In rising to second the motion, I
may mention one or two points upon which, I
think, the bill may be made more explicit. In
the 5th clause, for instance, regarding Ministers'
Stipends, there is used the general term of "Minis-
ters of Religion" without any definition as to
those who ought to be so considered. Now, I
am an enemy to quackery of all kinds. It is bad
in every shape, but more especially when it masks
itself under a garb of religion. In my opinion
the quackery of Dr. Eady is preferable to that of
Dr. Mawworm. The term "Ministers of Reli-
gion" should, in my opinion, be more acurately
defined. You will probably have in this Colony,
at no distant day, a body of Socialists, who may
claim, from Government, the aid of Government
for their teacher.

The Attorney General.—The bill does not
make the allowance compulsory upon Govern-
ment, but gives discretionary power to His Ex-
cellency, with the advice of the Executive Council,
to order or refuse such grant. It is not, there-
fore, very probable that a body of Owenites would
be enabled to obtain any grant of public money
under the provisions of this bill.

The Colonial Secretary.—It seems to me that
the objects of the bill are sufficiently and acu-
rately defined. No money can be granted for
"the building of a church or chapel," unless it
be designed for "the exercise of the public worship
of some denomination of Christians." Then as re-
gards stipends, aid can only be granted "towards
the support of Ministers of Religion.”—Socialism,
or Owenism, cannot be called "religion," nor
can the professors of such principles come under
the denomination of "Christians."

The Governor.—Probably the addition of one
word would satisfy the scruples of the Hon. Mem-
ber (Mr. Earp), who seconded the motion that
the bill be read a second time. The bill provides
that Government shall contribute "towards the
support of Ministers of Religion," and perhaps
the word "authorized" ministers of religion would
meet the difficulty.

The Attorney-General—There are many safe-
guards in the bill, against imposition. The first
clause provides that £300 must have been sub-
scribed by the applicants for aid in the erection
of a building, before their claim can be considered.
Then, as regards stipends, the necessary declara-
tion must be subscribed by at least 100 persons;
and, after all, the Governor, with the advice of
the Executive Council, has a discretionary power.
Before you give money in aid either of building
or endowment, the people themselves must con-
tribute.

Mr. Earp.—I do not press the objection; I
merely make allusion to the wording of the clause,
because I thought it might probably give encour-
agement to parties whose claims could not be ad-
mitted. But, certainly, no considerable number
of people will subscribe largely to satisfy any idle
caprice.

The Governor.—We wish to place all professors
of the Christian Religion on the same footing.
We say we will afford aid, upon a scale which
has been laid down, in support of any authorized
minister. That is not forcing upon them any
doctrine.

The Colonial Treasurer.—The question is, what
is to be the definition of Ministers of Religion?
There are numerous sects: the Church of Eng-
land, Presbyterians, Independents, Baptists, and
a great number of others; others of a rather
doubtful character.

The Colonial Secretary.—The Governor, with
the aid of the Executive Council, will exercise a
proper discretion as to the parties who have really
a claim. A sect has, for instance, recently sprung
up, calling themselves "A Provident Sect," the
object of which is commendable. Should a con-
siderable number of such religionists make appli-
cation for aid from Government, their claim
would be entitled to every fair consideration.

The Governor.—On this question I heard a
great deal of discussion—probably more than I
shall ever hear again—when the subject was before
the Governor and Council of New South Wales.
Some high Churchmen in that Council were op-
posed to the measure, on the supposition that its
provisions gave too wide a latitude for the ad-
mission to pecuniary aid from Government to
Dissenters; but I am glad to state that the alarms
of those gentlemen were proved to be erroneous,
and their arguments successfully refuted.

The motion for the second reading of the bill
was then put, and carried unanimously; and the
bill was, upon the motion of the Colonial Secre-
tary committed.

BILL IN COMMITTEE.

The three first clauses (on being read by the
Clerk of Councils), passed sub silencio.

On the fourth clause being read, which pro-
vides that the Trustees of any church or chapel
for the time being, shall set apart sittings marked
with the words "Free Seats;" amounting to not
less than one-third part of the whole of the sit-
tings in such church or chapel,—

The Governor said,—I wish it were possible to
avoid making any marked or apparently invidious
distinction, between the seats occupied by those
who are pew-renters, and those who are not. I
really do not see why we should tell the world
that persons sitting in any particular part of a
church or chapel, are unable to pay for the
accommodation.

The Attorney-General.—I should have a strong
repugnance to the clause as it now stands, if I
believed that marking those portions of the pews
or benches, not rented, with the words "Free
Seats," would give pain to any individual attend-
ing Divine Service. I think, on the contrary, that
satisfaction would, in almost every instance, be
given by such an intimation, on entering a church
or chapel. A stranger, for instance, entering a
place of worship, would have no difficulty, ob-
serving certain seats so marked, in obtaining
accommodation. But, on the contrary, were no
seats marked "Free," he might experience incon-
venience, not knowing where he could sit, with-
out intrusion on the pew-renters. For myself,