(117)

Mr. Clendon—If all those punishments of
inflicting penalties, and committing to prison
fail, then what shall be done? It seems that the
only remedy left would be to prevent the offender
from purchasing intoxicating liquors.

Mr. Porter—Of course the magistrate would
discriminate between a person brought up for the
first time, and an habitual offender. I think
that, if a man is convicted of drunkenness three
times within a short period, he may be considered
a confirmed drunkard, and the magistrate would
be justified in directing that the publicans should
not supply him with liquor.

The Attorney General— For the same reason
that you cannot legislate to prevent the sale of
spirits on the Sunday, so you cannot for this
offence. The law, for the same reason, would
be imperative. A man who has money to pay
for drink, can most certainly obtain it, even if
prevented from asking for it at the house of the
publican. The plans by which this law may
be very easily evaded, are too numerous, and
too obvious, to be pointed out.

The Governor—I agree with the Attorney
General that in this, as in the case of entirely
closing public houses on the Sabbath-day, it
would be impossible to carry out the law. The
confirmed drunkard could, without doubt, ob-
tain liquor in despite of any enactment, however
stringent; and, under such circumstances, it
would be unwise to legislate. The 31st clause
of the bill empowers the magistrate to imprison,
after the third conviction, and this, I think, is
preferable to any futile attempt of preventing
the offender from purchasing of the publican.
It is essential that no laws should be enacted,
except such as are likely to bo observed and
respected.

The Colonial Secretary—There is a man in
Auckland, known as "Tommy the Shingler,"
who has been pronounced a confirmed drunkard,
and the publicans have received a notification
from the magistrates, that they are not to supply
him with drink. This order, in practice, has
been inoperative, for the fellow has, since the
prohibition, been found in the streets drunk
several times, and punished without effect.

Mr. Porter—I think that Mr. Clendon's clause
would have the effect of preventing the con-
firmed drunkard from obtaining liquor of the
publican.

Mr. Clendon—By the clause, I wish to pre-
vent drunkards from obtaining liquor, rather
than to inflict punishment after he has committed
the offence.

The Governor—The Colonial Secretary has
just shewn the ineffectiveness of Mr. Clendon's
clause. There are, also, I believe, other instan-
ces, equally strong as the one alluded to, where
the order of the Police Magistrate to publicans,
with regard to confirmed drunkards, has proved
ineffective.

Mr. Clendon—I believe that "Tommy the
Shingler" has been seldom, if at all, before the
bench, since the notification to the publicans.

The Colonial Secretary—Not having before
me a return from the police office, I cannot say
what number of times the man has been brought
before the bench. I know, however, that the
late Captain Symonds tried every means to
reclaim him; and, having fined, and imprisoned
him repeatedly without effect, he determined to
try what leniency would do, and let him off
Even this was unavailable, and I am of opinion
that the only remedy for drunkards is "hard-
labour" punishments, which have not, hith-
erto, been strictly carried into effect in this
colony.

Mr. Porter—I believe that neither "Tommy
the Shingler," nor another confirmed drunkard-
of the name of Sheehan, have been brought be-
fore the bench, since the publicans were ordered
that they should not be served with liquor.

The additional clause, prohibiting publicans
from supplying "confirmed drunkards" with
liquor, was then read by the Clerk of Council,
and put from the chair that it do pass, when the
numbers were :—

Ayes—The Colonial Treasurer,
Mr. Porter,
Mr. Clendon.

Noes—His Excellency the Governor,
The Colonial Secretary,
The Attorney General,

The members being equal, his Excellency
gave the casting vote against the clause being
added, which was lost accordingly.

Clauses 29 and 30 were read, and adopted
without alteration.

Clause 31 having been read, Mr. Clendon
moved that, in the 171st line, after the word
"imprisoned," insert, "and kept to hard labor."
In same clause, in 175 line, after the words, "a
term of," insert, "not less than seven days, nor
more than thirty days." The hon. member
thought it very hard upon government and the
public, to feed a man in confinement, without
his doing any work during the period.

Mr. Porter—I think there is no necessity for
inserting the latter part of the clause.

The Attorney General—The act, as it stands,
gives the magistrates a power of summary en-
viction; and, in those cases, it is at their dis-
cretion whether hard labour shall be added to
the sentence. The clause is, therefore, unneces-
sary, because it only gives a power which the
magistrates already possess.

The Governor—I should most certainly recom-
mend that hard labour should always be inflicted
in cases of imprisonment on summary convic-
tion. This might prevent disputes between
magistrates sitting on the bench. In one case
in this colony, a dispute arose between a civil
and a police magistrate, as to the amount of fine
in a case of drunkenness. One of them was for
inflicting a fine of 5s., the lowest penalty;
whilst the police magistrate was for inflicting the
highest penalty of 20s. In this case he (the
Governor) had approved of the Police Magis-